So, we go home. And as many said, rightly so. My verdict is pretty similar to what most of you were thinking.
But for me, the time for dissection, and decisions (big and small) is now, not later, when we overanalyze to justify everything.
And my go-forward scenarios are very simple. We need to build the team for the next world cup, because in One Day cricket, that's what matters. And we have 4 years for it. As Chappell said in his post match conference, 18 months is not enough to make that kind of a bold move. If we start now, even if boldly, we would have enough time to re-build.
So, my take:
Following persons should be tapped on the shoulder to indicate its time to go (from ODIs): Sachin, Saurav, Rahul, Anil. I know, some would say Sachin is too great to be treated thus (and I agree), or that he can still contribute more than many others (again, I agree). But for me, that is not the point. We are talking of building a team for next World Cup. And if you don't give youngsters time enough, then you'll once again have a Raina scenario at the last minute. Surely, no one can say that Sachin would still be contributing as much 4 years later? And then, being great (or even a genius) doesn't mean you play till you drop.
And anyways, he has the time for his chosen departure from test cricket ' where there is no equivalent of a World Cup to prepare for. He, along with Saurav, Rahul, Laxman and Kumble, would have a tough test season coming up (we visit England and then Aussies, with Bangaldesh in between). That would anyway give enough chances for them to show if they belong.
And lets face it ' what more has Sachin to achieve in ODIs? I mean another couple of centuries, another 1000 runs added to that mountain, what difference does it make? Either to him, or to the long term cause of the team?
Choose your captain and vc from Sehwag and Yuvraj (I prefer Sehwag for his brains, or else Kaif). Bring in the Kaifs and Rainas and Chawlas (yes, he is an excellent ODI prospect for me) and Powars - give them enough opportunity to establish themselves without the fear of a 'senior waiting in the wings to pounce back'. Drop Harbhajan and ask him to come back with a better approach towards his game (aka ' ready to bowl round the wkt at the drop of a hat!). Play Pathan in EVERY game from now on, unlessl his BATTING form is bad. That is the whole point of being an 'allrounder'. You don't always have to excel in both forms of the game. Look at Freddie's batting form in ODIs!
On the coaching front ' I'm sure Chappell would love to continue with the above scenario ' a team of youngsters that HE gets to build. But he also needs to commit towards being more flexible in his approach. A bowling coach may be needed, despite what he feels. I am personally not a fan, but from what I've read and heard, the man has good cricket brain. The crucial issue, as he himself said, is that we cannot expect a major chance in 18 months. So if we need to choose a new coach, it has to be now.
Finally, on the Test front, we can still continue with the current team ' but as I said, the upcoming tough season can be a make or break for many. And we should be ready to tap the gentlemen on the shoulders here as well.
As I said in the beginning, for me the time for analysis is now, not later. Because then we get clouded by the 'contribution' of the modern 'giants' of the game, and tend to justify matters to the extreme.
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Manish, you are much better than the GC’’s pet prem panicker. Please do post so we can ignore pseudo journalists like prem panicker.
Well going by how much of a staright-shooter chappell is, why is it that , its always he, who is doing the talk, why can”t he take this straight-up talk from other people about his criticism and his attitude. I guess he is selective when it comes to that
Its because of ass-kissers like you
yeah the payers should be kicked out for their mistakes, but that dumbass chappell, who is the coach and should be keeping his mouth shut, and focus on coaching which I think he has never done, shold be retained, so that he can waste few more years of Indian cricket. Its pretty obvious, that it was players and the coach chappell, it was a collective failure, but these losers on rediff, still wanna kiss up to him, just Sharad Pawar is by offering him the position at NCA. I remember sometime back people like Manish Verma and Ruchir Joshi justifying selection of Agarkar in the team. I bet they’’s still find a way to justify the selection of that fruity asshole, even after he royally screwed up our chances in World Cup. Grow up out of your Chapell-mania you numb-nuts , he himself left the position, now we have to look for other options, grow up and get real.
Ass kissing chappell and yet you are not a fan of Chappell huh??:) What a joker…
Kaif has no role to play. He was give enough chances and by no means he is half as talented as Raina. Raina has repeatedly failed, but Raina is a geniune talent. Kaif is not in the same league.
Kaif cannot hold his place in the team. Select the 11. Then the captain!
Captaincy also needs to be reviewed. Rahul may be the better of the senior lot presently available. However, he is not innovative enough in the field.
Kaif may be a solution, but he needs to be built up. His confidence, that is.
Another option for captaincy is Karthik. Even if he is the substitute fielder, he is seen in the field more often than the regular players. Being seen in the field is important.
But of course a correct decision can be arrived at only by careful analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the people involved.
A requisite quality of paramount importance is intensity and focus. And the conviction to give the game more importance than other considerations.
have fun
Does replacing the existing players with new ones suffice?
How do we guarantee that the new players will perform to win.
Abilitywise the present lot of players are well capable of winning matches and they have shown it before too.
Replacing them may prove successful in the short term because the new players will perform to potential to cement their places. But after that what ?
What we need is a long term strategy to maintain thirst among the players for victory.
Money is a good motivator else our players won”t be appearing in the ads so often.
So money can be used to better effect.
In the present situation, players probably earn more money through ads rather than from their matches. This is therefore not motivating enough to extract their best performance in the cricket field.
A better option would be to have an agency of BCCI handle all advertisements of indian cricket team players.
Pay structure should be made to foster team spirit and motivate players to perform better.
chandan: I am not really a fan of Chappell myself. I said his vision of re-building with youth can NOW come in handy when we have the same aim (for the ODI team). But as I also said, his approach needs to be controlled. Speaking to media, out of turn, is just one problem. There are others related to actual coaching aspects as well. So, if we can get him to adapt, then maybe he can do a good work. Otherwise yes, lets bring on a new coach. But absolutely not an Indian one. However good intentioned he maybe, an Indian coach cannot rise above the system.
Manish: I agree with almost every comment that you”ve made. I just don”t agree with Chappell continuing though. I was of view that the guy is sporting. But the way he is now making statements in media that it were seniors who resisted the inclusion of youngsters and so on, is completely unacceptable. Everyone knows that no seniors are present while selecting a team apart from coach, captain who do have no votes and the five selectors who actually choose a team. After that this kind of statement is only back-stabbing and trying to prove himself innocent. I don”t like it.
Solution is simple if we dont indulge in analysis paralysis syndrome. Fire GC and RD.
I agree…Makes one wonder about footage-fixing. As far as I know, all my friends, colleagues, relatives are of course, disappointed and angry over the way the Indians played, but yet, cool. Even the respective neighbourhoods are calm..so where is the national anger? Sometimes one wishes, one could burn effigies of these trouble-mongerers…Or Not. They might make themselves martyrs to the cause of ”national anger” then.
Ravi: I am not favouring any bowler here. If they are the best we have and are having the desired fitness, reflexes and stamina, apart from the form, there is no stopping any bowler from being in the team. Right? Ne way my saying ur IP, Santh etc was just a generalistic statement, not implying ur choices over ZK or AA. I believe we should stop focussing so much on individuals from now on, and just think this whre you are leading as well. Any ways the other snippet about the board working was just a frustated fan’’s fear that nothing would be done except some outer cosmetic dressing. We are really concerned about the team as compared to the BCCI or the Visual Media, hence we are devoting this effort for some analysis instead of just character assassination as on TV.
Regarding the article, I agree with Arjun. Mistakes were made. Just not sure how much was Dravid’’s fault and what was the pressure exerted by the Selection Committee.
Though they all can”t be blamed for failures of Kaifs and Rainas. though I agree with selection of Kumble and Sehwag, for that matter even Munaf and HArbhajan Singh being faulty.
About the Hindu article, I am an optimist and will keep hoping that someday this words will translate into action
Kaif is the perfect choice for captain amongst the youngsters. Problem with Yuvraj is his inexperience ( I can never remember him being captain) and a study of his dismissals raises questions about his temperament. As for the seniors they should be asked to play Ranji and show what they are made of. One, it gives the Ranji players a chance to bowl at formidable opposition and two, it gives chance to these players to understand how fast the game is becoming day by day. Nowadays no one cares about your reputation. The youngsters are and will be so much into 20-20 that the 50-50 game will also become more high power, high scoring and fast game. India lost the two matches simply for there fielding and running. Ganguly cost some 10-15 runs while batting with his running and while fielding India gave away another 20-25 runs. Thats 40 runs for you which could have won India both the matches. Chappell needs to stay and given two years time to build his team.
Kaif is the perfect choice for captain amongst the youngsters. Problem with Yuvraj is his inexperience ( I have never remember him being captain) and a study of his dismissals show raises questions on his temperament. As for the seniors they should be asked to play Ranji and show what they are made of. One, it gives the Ranji players a chance to bowl at formidable opposition and two, it gives chance to these players to understand how fast the game is becoming day by day. Nowadays no one cares about your reputation. The youngsters are and will be so much into 20-20 that the 50-50 game will also become more high power, high scoring and fast game. India lost the two matches simply for there fielding and running. Ganguly cost some 10-15 runs while batting with his running and while fielding India gave away another 20-25 runs. Thats 40 runs for you which could have won India both the matches. Chappell needs to stay and given two years time to build his time.
http://www.hindu.com/2007/03/27/stories/2007032704382000.htm
Here is another link in totally opposite direction
Sorry
Here it is
http://www.rediff.com/wc2007/2007/mar/26guest.htm
BTW: check this article : http://www.rediff.com/wc2007/200
Aditya: I am not in favor of any bowler for that matter. For me, its simple, I will bank on fit players for the next world cup. Having seen Agarkar for eternity now and ZK.. They neither have the track record nor are at par with the rest of the world… I dont think, they are up there…At 32 and 33 I dont think they will be my spearheads… I am suggesting choose the best people who are fit and have the commitment and who will give their hundred percent in the field. Its not my responsibility but the boards to show me bowlers who are better than ZK and AA or for that matter Sreesanth (who you claim to be mine… though i wonder why..)and IP.
Finally, I didnt understand what you meant by your last statement, what are you trying to say, if the board is not going to think along our lines, it doesnt mean we have to think in their lines. if that is what you are trying to do… I will end it here..It wouldn”t serve any purpose.
Though We can agree that the probability of more than 2-3 players in these squad meeting those criteria is very small. It is the under 23s who can meet these standards within next 6 months and so we would ne way end up with a fairly young XI.
Though all this can be just a discussion since we know that the probability of our board doing all this thinking is much less as comapred to other.
Ravi: Refer to your previous post. ””There is no Guarantee that AA and Zaheer will play well till the time of next World Cup and hence no point in playing them now onwards.”” Both of them are at present fit, not very old for next world-cup and bowling well. There is at present no point dropping them till we discover some-one who is bowling better. Fielding wise right now these guys are much better fielding wise then your Sree-sanths, Munafs and VRVs. Only IP is on par.
Here I am at no point disregarding fielding and fitness. Refer my comments on VS and Bhajji. Obviously there has to be a certain minimum standard for fielding and fitness (minimum should be better than the best of the rest, this is one thing definitely in our hands, talent may or may not be unearhhed). Now if Zaheer and AA or others are working hard to match up these standards and are holding their form well, there is no point discarding them just for the sake of young.
Aditya: I dont understand what you term as absurd here. I haven”t said we should not have players play matches. We should, but when they come out to field, Its highly unlikely that ZK and AA will light the team with their fielding. Look at the consistency of Kaif, Raina, Yuvraj and Dinesh Karthik in the field, their fielding lifts the team’’s morale. Do you remember that RD actually dropped a catch standing at long on which Kaif took when we played against pakistan. Imagine a team with people like that, having no stars. Have about 40 such players who are up there with the rest of the world. Here is another thought,
Where would you place your bet in a)fielding b)bowling c)batting? dont tell me you want to place it on everything
Ravi: By this standard there is no guarantee about any player. Then best option is not to play any one till next world cup. Have a trial 6 months b4 the next world cup and take players from there. This is just absurd thinking.
Prem: Whatever. But, these four should go. May be, it”ll be either too easy or too painful for Rahul. Can”t see why he is being criticised too much, for a failure in batting display of his team mates. Bowling is okay. Bowling department takes care of itself. We don”t have Mc Graths, and Donalds and Muralis. So, best bowler is going to get the nod. Unless these old quadrapule return to their homes, it is tough selection later on.
Manish/Aditya,
I seriously believe, that cricket matches are statistically independent. Its just how you play on a particular day. Only thing that I see some sort of consistency in is Fielding and Fitness. By that, we have no guarantee that AA and ZK will play well in time for the next world cup. So, its always better to have a pool of Fit players (I accept this idea from RD and GC)from which we can choose from and preferably this players are going to last till next world cup. We can have ZK and AA guide the youngsters but no need for them to be in the ODI team. I am okay if they are part of the test team, which I think they will be and am skeptical about their lasting till the next world cup and taking away two spots of the pool of players for the next two years…….I agree with most of the remaining suggestions…Having said that, manish, i think selectors will kick sehwag out this time…. because they wanted to some time back and not because he is playing better now :(.
Shekhar: yes we did not have good enough team. So….lets start early enough to build one in time for next cup. No?
The other thing I do not understand is about all the writers on cricket is that they claim to see everything beforehand and then after the failure has occured (yes, inevitably), they ask for everyone’’s head. Had STR and YS fired, they would have claimed that this is the most balanced team … as was claimed when Indian team went to WC 2007. The fact is that the team was not good enough was evident 1 yr earlier. So . ..Greg Chappel and RD did what they could with what they had. Why blame them when we do not have good enogh players ? Let us be realistic about that.
Has the time come to have 2 different teams and coaches for ODIs and test ?
Yeah we should look at tests issue later. About Zaheer and AA, it was Ravikumar’’s suggestion and not yours. Just putting my opinion.
aditya: yes maybe Sehwag needs that kick. I somehow got the feeling that he had got it already. Though his attitude is not entirely up to the scratch…his fielding was pretty urgent (as much as he can be). But who knows…
Manish: about Dravid, I would have him in the side for two years just to groom the team and help put the systems in place. May be have him in the squad but not play him. Sehwag has to go for sometime. He needs a kick up his back-side for long term future. But if he can;t recover from that, then hard luck. We have to move on. My problem with Sehwag is the legacy he brings to the job: Laziness, lack of fitness, sub-standard fielding and running between the wickets. Now I would not want such a person to lead my team and be the role-model for my young team.
aditya: Yes Munaf needs to go from ODIs, because of his bowling. As for Sehwag…I think he would be fine, let him be…let him play his game. Give him captaincy as well. And ofcourse, judge him as a player just like any other. If he is out of form, chuck him. But as of now, this seems to be the way to go. Kaif, I think, would fit v well esp if Rahul is gone. Anyway, the point was, give these youngsters an unbroken run. Be ready to lose big time, atleast early on. Dont be deterred by failure (and that means dont listen to the mass media
and then see who comes out as a winner. I think what I mean here is the general direction we need to take. And btw, I strongly think that Dravid needs to be taken away from management. In ODIs his role is as unimp as that of Sachin. In tests, play him as our best batsman.
look at Sachin. He was one of the 2-3 players who were fit and fine till the end of SL innings while all others seemed to be cramping. Munaf and Powar need to take that as example.
About Kaif, really confused. I think he has in him to be the captain, but batting wise its a big if. Same is Sehwag (Also if you want to create a legacy of winning with all the processes, dunno how Sehwag as captain would fit in as an example??). IMO lets make Kaif the skipper with Dravid to guide him and give hima year to prove his batting. If not, then either of Yuvraj or My choices Kartik/Chawla should be made captain. Dhoni should be kept away from this and let free to do his own thing. The Rainas, Sharmas and Raidu (Ambati, if any one remembers) can be bought now. Regarding the bowling: intresting thought by Ravi about Zaheer and Agarkar. But I think they should be persisted for now. We have Munaf, Sree Santh and Pathan as well as Balaji and VRV tried during last two years. ….
Regarding Bhajji: He needs to go out and play a season of county or may be just take a break and analyse his bowling. He needs a break 6-8 months from International Cricket. Also leaves room to try out Chawla, Powar and others (like the Bengal spinner, Sourashish Lahiri, I guess)
Hey, I never Zaheer and AA. Ofcourse they should stay. Even Bhajji…I think….he shud be seen under a captain who gives him an attacking field. I have a feeling that his performance is not entirely under his control. And btw…about Pathan in tests…I was mainly addressing the ODI and specifically the prep for next WC. Pathan shud play every ODI till his batting form drops. Simple. Lets look at test issues later.
Also Zaheer and Agarkar have been superb and have good fitness right now. They can guide the youngsters in the team and if they are there till next WC, provided they meet the very stringent fitness criteria, there should not be any problem. Also making whole lot of changes just for the heck of it would not help any one. Yeah one thing, Zaheer and Agarkar should not henceforth be considered as Automatic starters in the team.
I would also actually make some changes in the test side. First, Sehwag has to go out for some time. So too Pathan (from tests and not ODIs). Even Jaffer doesn”t inspire confidence, esp with body language, but he is scoring, so I can”t decide. We should bring in Chopra in the team. Heck even make him the VC, in case Kaif does well as ODI captain, we need to have a smart and hardworking VC in tests, Chopra seems to fit the bill. Powar needs to be given a break in the test side immediately.
Manish: I agree with almost all of what you are saying here. Just a couple of different takes I want to take here. First Chappel has to stay. Sachin, Saurav, Kumble have to go for sure. Just not sure about Dravid. For me he has to stay in the team at the moment, as part of the think tank but not the captain. Harbhajan needs a break big time. And so does Virender Sehwag. Its now almost 4 years where his stop-start form has affected the balance. That is one big bullet we should bite ala Zaheer and Ganguly. I would actually send him away from Tests as well. Just to sort out his mind and fitness. If we recovers after a year, he will perform for atleast two to three years. If he doesn”t, so be it.
Also would like some action against Munaf and Powar as well. I admit they are brilliant while bowling, but the fielding needs to improve by almost 200% in both cases. And as Siddhu showed in 1997, it can be done at any age. continued….
Yep Prem. I would go little further, infact, its also time to send zaheer, Agarkar also, surely you dont expect fast bowlers in early 30s playing in the next world cup. What this world cup showed to us clearly, is India lost to Bangladeshi teenagers and lost to young sri lankan batsman…. surely records around their more “illustrated” team mates…. May be bad strategy…. I tend to think its time to send even sehwag out.. i mean, give him a break…. and bring Kaif, Tiwari, Chawla and Pathan back…. I dont know how good a captain Yuvraj is… I would prefer Kaif for the job…
Yep….and anyway, what more can these guys give that would be good for Indian ODI cricket? A few more match/series wins…a few thousand more runs…who care about those ODI matches outside the WC? And surely they cannot contribute in the next Cup….so…time to go. I hope they also realise this. This is not emotional - this is genuine, cold logical thinking.
Manish mate, yes agree with pretty much everything you say. Definately time to get done with the batting trio in the ODI version of the game. The point is these guys, no matter how great they are - they do not have the attitude of improving their overall game beyond a point ( Perhaps a bit harsh on Dravid as to his credit he has recalibrated his game in the ODI format quite significantly but running and agility still major issues). Look for instance, Ganguly was a poor runner between the wickets 3 years back ( pretty much his whole career actually!!) and has anything changed? Innumerable instances of missing out vital additional runs and given that the gap isnt that big among the top 8 teams in the world, India is always invariably behind the 8th ball. Tendulkar well, time to ask this seriously - When was the last time he stood up to be counted in a crucial game when we needed him most ( WC 2003 against Pak i suppose but thats 4 years back!!).